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At this point I am researching Google Apps as an alternative to our current systems. Primarily these are Zimbra and Ironport. 

According to the website, it appears that vault is included free with Google Apps. However, the fact that they explicitly list it as optional makes me think that there is a cost to it. Is anyone using it? Can you confirm that it is free or explain the costs involved?

Has anyone migrated from Zimbra? If so, how challenging was it?

Google's FAQ claims that many schools have migrated in 6 weeks. Is that realistic for an institution with 20k accounts? I fear our greatest hurdle will be automating data migration from Zimbra.

Thanks
Kevin

Charles K. Morgan
Assistant Director of User Support Services
University Technology
Western Illinois University
CK-Morgan@wiu.edu
Phone: 309-298-1177
********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Comments




On 13 March 2014 15:10, Charles K Morgan <CK-Morgan@wiu.edu> wrote:
At this point I am researching Google Apps as an alternative to our current systems. Primarily these are Zimbra and Ironport. 

According to the website, it appears that vault is included free with Google Apps. However, the fact that they explicitly list it as optional makes me think that there is a cost to it. Is anyone using it? Can you confirm that it is free or explain the costs involved?


for students, I'm fairly sure it isn't for staff.


 
Has anyone migrated from Zimbra? If so, how challenging was it?

Google's FAQ claims that many schools have migrated in 6 weeks. Is that realistic for an institution with 20k accounts? I fear our greatest hurdle will be automating data migration from Zimbra.


We went from on premise cyrus IMAP, with 40,000 accounts, in 5 days.

The way we did it was to stage the migration - at one point we took a snapshot of all mail older than one year and pre-moved that to the Google account. At the beginning of the 5 days, we swopped the delivery to Google, span up a load of virtual machines and used these to migrate the rest of the email...

I've never used Zimbra tho :-(

Mally 
********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Message from william.eubank@uah.edu

Hi Kevin,

We have been using Google Apps and Postini for several years now.  Anxiously awaiting our migration to Vault.  From what I've been told Vault pricing is based on your FTE count, a per user fee somewhere around $10/user/year maybe.  Students are archived at no cost.

We migrated from a unix email server so I can't speak to Zimbra.  We made a web app to allow opt-in per user, they login and click a button. for a 3 month period then switched everyone else who did not opt in in batch.  We used forwarding in our external system with a routing domain alias.  Then later switched our DNS MX records.  It all went pretty smoothly.

At the time Google had a tool to migrate via pop/imap in the admin console.  It's since been removed.  I would suggest a third party tool or a home grown one using some tools or libraries like imapsync.

-W




According to the website, it appears that vault is included free with Google Apps. However, the fact that they explicitly list it as optional makes me think that there is a cost to it. Is anyone using it? Can you confirm that it is free or explain the costs involved?

Vault is not free.  I believe pricing for Vault is now based on total faculty/staff FTE with students included for free.
 

Has anyone migrated from Zimbra? If so, how challenging was it?

A few folks on this list have migrated from Zimbra.  You might try searching this forum's archives.
 

Google's FAQ claims that many schools have migrated in 6 weeks. Is that realistic for an institution with 20k accounts? I fear our greatest hurdle will be automating data migration from Zimbra.

We did a staged migration with student accounts first (over 20K accounts).  It took a few days with a homegrown migration application for mail only.

We followed up with a faculty/staff migration using a commercial migration tool (http://www.cloudsolutions.co.uk/cloudmigrator.html).  We moved everyone's most recent mail over the course of one weekend and migrated older email/archives over the following week. 


 
********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

We're running Google Apps simultaneously with Zimbra.  Gmail is turned off.  It works.  The calendar culture that Zimbra facilitates is the biggest deal in moving and we haven't been ready to engage that.  A peer school bought Resource25 when they moved to Gmail, which I'm guessing had to do with placating the people who depended on more sophisticated calendaring capabilities than Google Calendar offers.

-ms
+------------------------------------------------------------+
Michael Sherer                  voice:  574-535-7406
Director of Information Technology
016 Union Bldg.                 fax:    574-535-7017
Goshen College                  e-mail:  msherer@goshen.edu
Goshen, IN 46526                http://www.goshen.edu/~msherer
+------------------------------------------------------------+
                   "Technology for Service"
 
"Dream no small dreams for they have no power to move the hearts of men."
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From: "Mally Mclane" <mally.mclane@BRISTOL.AC.UK>
To: GOOGLEAPPS@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 11:23:23 AM
Subject: Re: [GOOGLEAPPS] A few questions about Google Apps




On 13 March 2014 15:10, Charles K Morgan <CK-Morgan@wiu.edu> wrote:
At this point I am researching Google Apps as an alternative to our current systems. Primarily these are Zimbra and Ironport. 

According to the website, it appears that vault is included free with Google Apps. However, the fact that they explicitly list it as optional makes me think that there is a cost to it. Is anyone using it? Can you confirm that it is free or explain the costs involved?


for students, I'm fairly sure it isn't for staff.


 

Has anyone migrated from Zimbra? If so, how challenging was it?

Google's FAQ claims that many schools have migrated in 6 weeks. Is that realistic for an institution with 20k accounts? I fear our greatest hurdle will be automating data migration from Zimbra.


We went from on premise cyrus IMAP, with 40,000 accounts, in 5 days.

The way we did it was to stage the migration - at one point we took a snapshot of all mail older than one year and pre-moved that to the Google account. At the beginning of the 5 days, we swopped the delivery to Google, span up a load of virtual machines and used these to migrate the rest of the email...

I've never used Zimbra tho :-(

Mally 
********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.



********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

We are in the process of migrating from Lotus Notes to Google Apps. Vault is not free and is costing us $10 a person. We haven't migrated yet, but are planning on doing a rapid migration of about 3,500 accounts over a two week period. 

Nick

Nick Scheib
Manager, System Engineering and Administration
Office of Information Technology | UNLV
Herman Westfall Building HWB 110F | 702-895-4168
http://oit.unlv.edu | Twitter@unlv_oit | IT Help Desk: 702-895-0777


On 3/13/2014 8:10 AM, Charles K Morgan wrote:
Google's FAQ claims that many schools have migrated in 6 weeks. Is that realistic for an institution with 20k accounts? I fear our greatest hurdle will be automating data migration from Zimbra.

Thanks
Kevin

Charles K. Morgan
Assistant Director of User Support Services
University Technology
Western Illinois University
CK-Morgan@wiu.edu
Phone: 309-298-1177
********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Three or four years ago, we used various Google APIs and our own means to migrate about 60,000 student accounts from an IMAP-based mail server to GAE. Running between one to two thousand users per night, it took about two months. We set up a schedule and informed the students to be migrated via email about 2 weeks ahead of time and then again the day before that their email would be unavailable for a short period of time on a particular night. That way, there was minimal disruption and we could stagger the process over time. Many students already had standard gmail accounts, so it was no problem for them to switch.
-=Tobias
********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Kevin,
We had migrated from an internal mail server and I can speak to migration-we moved students first (just mail) and we did jnot migrate their mail at all.  It was quick, over a couple of days but we did an extensive campaign to make sure that students looked through and forwarded or archived any mail they wanted to keep.  For faculty and staff, we did the migration over the course of 5 months going department by department because we were migrating all of the mail as well as assist in the setup of email clients the day after their migration.  I offered migration orientations to inform faculty and staff of what to expect and what was expected of them to prepare for the migration.  I also reached out to individual departments and did orientations for department meetings.  it was slower, but less stressful if we did it all at once.  We had a migration tool developed by SADA Systems but we did the actual migrations ourselves.
Ken
Ken Yoshioka Graphic Media and Training Specialist SOE 005 Center for Instruction and Technology Information Technology Services University of San Francisco 415-422-5670 yoshioka@usfca.edu


On 13 Mar 2014 15:49, "Nicholas Scheib" <nick.scheib@unlv.edu> wrote:
>
> We are in the process of migrating from Lotus Notes to Google Apps. Vault is not free and is costing us $10 a person. We haven't migrated yet, but are planning on doing a rapid migration of about 3,500 accounts over a two week period. 

Sounds about right, as we were looking at £7.50 per account.

Depending on the uses cases here, people may like to look at www.backupify.com - we moved to them for a good price and we're very happy.

Mally

> Nick
>
> Nick Scheib
> Manager, System Engineering and Administration
> Office of Information Technology | UNLV
> Herman Westfall Building HWB 110F | 702-895-4168
> http://oit.unlv.edu | Twitter@unlv_oit | IT Help Desk: 702-895-0777
>
>
>


We are about to move from Zimbra to google apps.  12k accounts but we will not be migrating student email - only fac/staff around 2500 accounts.

We currently use oracle calendar and so far no plans on migrating any data as success rate is low.

We are using google's tool to migrate email only.  Looks like you're cap to about 1 msg per second but can do up to 50 users at a time per run of the  tool.  I think I might be able to push it to three or four tools with a total of 100 users at a time without the Zimbra servers not going ballistic.

Regarding vault, it's $10 per fac/staff user per year. Students are free.  We were told the count is per account, not per FTE as someone mentions.


---
°(((=((===°°°(((===============

When we consolidated IT services in Engineering, there were about 10 different sources for email including various instances of Exchange, IMAP servers, Zimbra, etc. We provided links to the available Google tools and instructions for their use to the end users. Those with sufficient comfort level were allowed to do a self-migration; at the other end of the spectrum some users required special handling (e.g., those with thousands of folders, folder names exceeding the (then) length limits, convoluted procmail recipes, strange mail routing, etc.). Many users (students for example) chose the self-migration route. About half of the faculty availed themselves of hands on assistance in varying degrees (though we still met with all of the faculty individually anyway). Staff personnel generally required the most intervention.

Depending upon source and client (Thunderbird, Mac Mail, Outlook, Eudora (!), Emacs interface to MH, old school Unix mail, etc.) we had a set procedure for handling each combination (though some of these had to be invented on the fly). Migration assistance also included calendars and contacts in addition to email. The migration of the academic departments, centers, research units, etc. was serialized, with each one taking on the order of several weeks, starting from initial planning, forensics, and user education to completion. We did administrator driven migration where possible (some of the tools we used 5 years ago are now deprecated) and client-side migration where necessary (including IMAP to IMAP using an intermediary). Since there were so many different migration scenario combinations, using a single tool/service would not have helped us much.

I should add that, while our approach was more labor intensive, beyond being acceptable from a technical perspective, the user contact associated with a hands on approach (when required) had definite sociological/psychological benefits as well, given the stress involved in any sort of change to an organization, business process, or work tools. Probably common sense to this group, but having someone sitting next to the user when she/he presses the "Ok" button can make a world of difference.

--david

David J. Hutches, Ph.D.
Director, Engineering Computing
Jacobs School of Engineering
University of California, San Diego
9500 Gilman Drive, Dept 0437
La Jolla, CA  92093-0437
+1 858-534-2202

On Thu, 13 Mar 2014, Charles K Morgan wrote: > > At this point I am researching Google Apps as an alternative to our current systems. Primarily these are Zimbra and Ironport. > > According to the website, it appears that vault is included free with Google Apps. However, the fact that they explicitly list it as optional makes me think that there is a cost to it. Is anyone using it? Can you confirm that it is free or explain the costs involved? > > > Has anyone migrated from Zimbra? If so, how challenging was it? We migrated email and contacts from an IMAP based system to GoogleApps using a homegrown tool that uses the google email migration API. We wanted a batch oriented tool that we could modify to match the ever changing Google API environment. Additionally, the tool needed to have complete error recovery and extensive logging. We didn't want to get into a case where some unknown message caused the tool to abort with an error. There is a fair amount of custom code to handle various errors. Problems with dates/times. Also, Google does not allow duplicate Message-IDs. If a user filed a message into two different folders, and you migrate the message first for one folder, and then try the other folder, the second time will fail with no notice or warning. The message won't be placed in the second folder. At least when we ran the archiving. It's not like this is documented anywhere. We happened to have a monster Sparc box lying around, so we ran the migrations on it. It is very good at running large numbers of processes, but not terribly quickly. However, as noted elsewhere, Google limits migration to about one message per second. Google told us we could run up to as many as 250 migrations at the same time. We slow started transfers during the account analysis phase and limited to 5 accounts during message analysis. We didn't want to crash the source server. Because of the timings, we only ever ran about 100 transfers concurrently. However, 100 msgs/sec gave us pretty decent throughput. I'm not sure how fast migration could actually proceed. Generally speaking, when I would queue a few thousand users at night, they were always finished by the morning - excepting large accounts. For example, accounts with 100,000 messages will take more than a day to migrate. If your current email system allows attachments larger than 25MB, you will need a technique to handle these messages. We re-wrote the message as a muti-part mime, and for large attachments, we changed that part to text/html, stored the attachment on a web server and wrote a link into the html section. The html links were randomly generated. > > > Google's FAQ claims that many schools have migrated in 6 weeks. Is that realistic for an institution with 20k accounts? I fear our greatest hurdle will be automating data migration from Zimbra. > It is quite reasonable. However, the size of the help center will be a major factor. We migrated students easily. However, our "life long learning center" students and our retiree population used a fair number of resources. Certain faculty also had special needs that consumed a fair amount of staff time. Our old webmail system was light on resource usage; Gmail uses more. Creaky old XP systems often had problems. Additionally, many users needed help setting up imap connections on smart phones and the like. We fielded a large number of calls that went like "my inbox used to have 1000 messages, now it has 900. You messed up." Of course, their inbox was set to conversation mode, and they had 1000 messages and 900 conversations. Certain messages will not migrate. For instance, I had the source code for a root kit in a message, and it would not migrate. In our case, migration was required because the source email system was failing and the vendor couldn't fix it. This allowed us to force any users who didn't want to migrate to take the step. Changing the MX was a separate project. We needed to route messages for some staff to an internal Exchange system. We wanted to provide spam detection and header markup to the Exchange system based on what Google thought the message was (not spam/spam). If interested, I can discuss this as well. The MX for @udel.edu is now GoogleApps and handles email for 90,000+ addresses, of which 30-40,000 are active. GoogleApps also handles 20,000+ mailing list type addresses. Good luck! Mike Michael Porter Systems Programmer V IT/NSS University of Delaware > > Thanks > Kevin > > > > > > > > Charles K. Morgan > Assistant Director of User Support Services > University Technology > Western Illinois University > CK-Morgan@wiu.edu > Phone: 309-298-1177 > > ********** > Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. > > - Mike Porter PGP Fingerprint: F4 AE E1 9F 67 F7 DA EA 2F D2 37 F3 99 ED D1 C2 ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Message from sfs@umn.edu

We did similar to UAH in creating a per-user opt-in migration process.  That migration started in 2009 and is wrapping up this year.  The biggest hurdle for us was the inability to migrate those with HIPAA concerns, but last year we were able to get Google to sign a BAA which allowed us to start migrating the remainder of our users.  Since we run our own MTA infrastructure we were able to direct a user's email to either Google or our own servers depending on whether they had migrated yet or not.


Vault is only free for students if you pay for licenses for fac/staff.  Just want to make sure that's clear.


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