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Message from breslinj@rosemontschool.org

Friends,  Any help that you might provide to our wonderful young tech specialist would be most appreciated. See his issue below. Thanks.   Jim

Hi,

I'm Eric Wunder, Rosemont School of the Holy Child's new(ish) sysadmin/tech support specialist. I was encouraged to write by Jim Breslin.

We've recently made the migration to Google Apps for our email, and now I'm working on setting up mailing lists, where I've run into a bit of a snag. When creating Groups for our Faculty and Staff, we discovered that although students are not able to see Groups in the Directory, they able to see that the Groups exist via GMail's autocomplete in the To line.

For lists like Faculty and Staff, it is not as important, but when we get to lists for the Trustees and Board of Directors, we definitely do not want Students, Faculty, or Staff to know that those lists exist. However, we still need Faculty to be able to send emails to Staff, and vice-versa. A better example might be a member of the Board needing to send an email to a Board committee without being a member of that committee.

As I have it now, anyone with @rosemontschool.org can send to Faculty and Staff, but only the Owner can see the users in the group. Students are still able to see the faculty list when they start typing Faculty into the To line.

Please let me know if there's something I'm missing, or if there's a better way to do this.

If you prefer give me a call.

Thanks,
Eric Wunder
Rosemont School of the Holy Child
1344 Montgomery Ave
Rosemont, PA 19087
610-922-1000 (x1220)

--
James E. Breslin                                                        
Director of Technology
Rosemont School of the Holy Child
1344 Montgomery Avenue
Rosemont, PA   19010
610-922-1004 (direct)
610-922-1030 (fax)

********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Comments

Message from shawt@d-e.org

Is the issue that you don't want people to know that you have a BOT list, or that you don't want people to be able to easily send to that list.

You can set the groups so that posting to the group is only permitted by group members, but of course that doesn't get around your BOT committee problem. An alternative would be to require group moderation if you have a trusted person (perhaps the Head's admin assistant) who was willing to screen out any inappropriate messages sent to the group. Messages would go first to your moderator who could elect to let them go through or not.

Hope this helps.
Trevor

Message from schmelderm@lancastercountryday.org

I agree with Trevor. It's impossible to hide the fact that the list exists, but I'm not sure of the harm of that, as long as you restrict who can email to it and more importantly, who can see the members. 

Alternatively, if you really want to keep them guessing, give it an obscure name or abbreviation.


Mike Schmelder
Director of Information Services

Lancaster Country Day School
725 Hamilton Road
Lancaster, PA  17603-2491

717.392.2916 x246

www.lancastercountryday.org

  




I'm not going to say for sure that this is your answer, but it's probably worth checking.  In the Google Apps dashboard, go to Settings then select service Google Groups for Business. Under Group visibility, there is an option that says group owners can hide groups from the groups directory.  My assumption is if you have then enabled, which I do not think is the default, then you can configure the individual group to now show up in the directions.  Again guessing here, but if it does not show up in the directory, then I'm thinking it won't show up as an auto fill entry in the address book.

Note, when you try to test this, note that if you entered it previously will may still show up for the person whose entered it in the past as it may now be listed as a contact for that individual.  Once something is listed as a contact, which Google will add automatically in some cases, it will always show up in the to window (even if an email address is no longer valid).  You need to go into the contacts for that person and delete that contact before doing your test, or test it from an account of someone who has never tried to type the list address before.

However, I don't really think you can depend on obscurity as security even if you do get it out of the address book.  As mentioned previously, if you need the list to be usable by anyone but want it moderated then you need to moderate it.  Otherwise, you can set the list to only receive messages from list members. 

If you were dealing with a somewhat small amount of people and can get them all in a room together, which doesn't sound like the case for a board committee, then another option would be to subscdribe the entire board to the list but set it to only email messages to those on the committee.  Other board members could see all the messages if they logged into the web interface, could send email to the list since they are list members, but they would not receive the messages sent to the committee as an email.

Regards,
Bill
--
Bill Campbell
Academic Technology Coordinator  |  Dwight-Englewood School
www.d-e.org
+1 201-569-9500 x3827  |  campbb@d-e.org
Twitter: BillCamp  |  Google+: bit.ly/BillAtGplus



Message from schmelderm@lancastercountryday.org

Hi Bill,

I tried that setting "do not show in directory" and tested from an account that had never sent to the group. Unfortunately, it showed up in autocomplete even though it's not in the directory.

Mike

On Mar 27, 2012, at 3:19 PM, Bill Campbell <campbb@d-e.org> wrote:

I'm not going to say for sure that this is your answer, but it's probably worth checking.  In the Google Apps dashboard, go to Settings then select service Google Groups for Business. Under Group visibility, there is an option that says group owners can hide groups from the groups directory.  My assumption is if you have then enabled, which I do not think is the default, then you can configure the individual group to now show up in the directions.  Again guessing here, but if it does not show up in the directory, then I'm thinking it won't show up as an auto fill entry in the address book.

Note, when you try to test this, note that if you entered it previously will may still show up for the person whose entered it in the past as it may now be listed as a contact for that individual.  Once something is listed as a contact, which Google will add automatically in some cases, it will always show up in the to window (even if an email address is no longer valid).  You need to go into the contacts for that person and delete that contact before doing your test, or test it from an account of someone who has never tried to type the list address before.

However, I don't really think you can depend on obscurity as security even if you do get it out of the address book.  As mentioned previously, if you need the list to be usable by anyone but want it moderated then you need to moderate it.  Otherwise, you can set the list to only receive messages from list members. 

If you were dealing with a somewhat small amount of people and can get them all in a room together, which doesn't sound like the case for a board committee, then another option would be to subscdribe the entire board to the list but set it to only email messages to those on the committee.  Other board members could see all the messages if they logged into the web interface, could send email to the list since they are list members, but they would not receive the messages sent to the committee as an email.

Regards,
Bill
--
Bill Campbell
Academic Technology Coordinator  |  Dwight-Englewood School
www.d-e.org
+1 201-569-9500 x3827  |  campbb@d-e.org
Twitter: BillCamp  |  Google+: bit.ly/BillAtGplus



Message from tphelan@peddie.org

I've been following this thread and don't have anything to offer in way of a solution, but for those interested in the sordid history of email groups in Google Apps I have the following to offer...

I started following Google Apps from almost the day it was launched as "Google for Your Domain" (2006?) and mail groups have to win the prize for the feature with the most dead ends abrupt changes...and this is saying A LOT for a Google product as Google seems to pride itself on keeping customers off balance by making abrupt changes.

Email groups started life as "Mail Lists" and could be included in the domain directory (and hence enable domain-wide type ahead) provided your domain didn't have over 500 (or was it 1000?) users. Mail lists went through a number of changes and then came the radical shift to Google Groups which essentially turned every mail list into a full fledged Google Group. The API actually contains different classes  for handling "mail lists" and "groups" although they both now seem to reference the same core data objects.

Anyhow, when Groups first started they were NOT published to the domain directory and thus inability to have domain-wide type ahead for domain groups was a very common and significant complaint. Google's answer at the time was that we should create a "Shared Contact" for each Google group we wanted published in the domain directory. A shared contact is simply a contact published to the domain directory which references any email address, including those outside of the domain which was its main purpose I think. The only problem was that the only way to do manage shared contacts was with a 3rd party tool or the API. The Shared Contacts page on my GoogleAppsAdmin site (https://webapps.peddie.org/GoogleAppsAdmin/) was thus born. This actually turned out to be a very good way of handling groups IMHO as it gave complete control over if and how domain groups were published to the domain directory. I found prefacing all of our shared contacts for published groups with a "#" was very helpful because users could then simply type "#" and see a list of all available domain groups. Shared contacts can still be used in this way which is why I have left the Shared Contact page on my site. [side note: It is very easy to add a domain to my site so if anyone reading this is curious feel free to just send me your Google Apps domain and I'll add your domain to the authorized list.]

But of course Google couldn't leave well enough alone. Sometime about a year or so ago ALL of our groups started appearing in type ahead lists, even ones we didn't want to publish and for which didn't have a shared contact. After looking into it, we found out that, sure enough, Google made a significant change without bothering to notify us. Now all groups are published to the domain directory and as far as I know there is nothing you can do about it.

Lastly, I hope to set aside a few days this summer to take a fresh look at the GoogleAppsAdmin site to see if there is anything worth updating. One thing on my list is to see if there is anything in the API that would allow us to unpublish a group, but I'm not hopeful.

And this concludes all the useless knowledge I have about Google email groups.

Tom

-- 
Tom Phelan
Director of Technology
Peddie School
tphelan@peddie.org
Office: 609-944-7625
http://www.peddie.org



Message from breslinj@rosemontschool.org

Thank you all for your responses. We think we are now doing the best we can with what Google has given. 

In order to give access to the mailing lists to the people that need to send email, but are not meant to be on the receiving end of the list, we will be including everyone as members of the list, but specifying who will (or will not) receive email when we add them as members. We will also be turning off online archiving for any sensitive mailing lists, like the Board of Directors. That way a select group of individuals will be able to send email to the Board without being included on every mailing and without being able to access it on the Groups page, similar to a whitelist.

Initially, we failed to see the option to add Google Groups for Business to our services, so we were previously working with the standard Google Apps' Groups, which has even less configuration than the Google Groups for Business.

Thank you again for the time and effort many of you put in to helping us understand Google Groups better.

Regards,

Eric Wunder
Rosemont School of the Holy Child
1344 Montgomery Ave
Rosemont, PA 19010
610-922-1000 (x1220)


Does anyone know of universities that have negotiated for their Google Apps for Education data/computing to be held within the US much like Google’s Apps for Government service?

 

Best,

 

Dallas

 

 

Dallas Thornton | Division Director, Health Cyberinfrastructure |  San Diego Supercomputer Center

University of California, San Diego | 9500 Gilman Drive, MC 0505,  La Jolla, CA, 92093

E: dallas@sdsc.edu | T: (858) 534-8364 | F: (858) 225-3661

 

I started that conversation with Tom Mills, while he was still at Google, last year. I believe this is a conversation we need to revisit with Google, given the evolving security and compliance landscape. 

W. Akpose

On Wednesday, April 10, 2013, Thornton, Dallas wrote:

Does anyone know of universities that have negotiated for their Google Apps for Education data/computing to be held within the US much like Google’s Apps for Government service?

 

Best,

 

Dallas

 

 

Dallas Thornton | Division Director, Health Cyberinfrastructure |  San Diego Supercomputer Center

University of California, San Diego | 9500 Gilman Drive, MC 0505,  La Jolla, CA, 92093

E: dallas@sdsc.edu | T: (858) 534-8364 | F: (858) 225-3661

 



--
Wole Akpose, CISSP, CGEIT, D.Eng., Lean Six Sigma
Chief Information Officer
Mor
gan State University
1700 E. Cold Spring Lane
Baltimore, MD 21251
office. 443.885.3372 / 443.885.4431
f. 443.885.8211



I tried to negotiate that when we signed with them last year. They flatly refused to make ANY changes in the contract. (Much thanks to Educause for working out language with them that we could, at least, live with.) We will continue to run a local email server for use by faculty researchers with federal grants and export restrictions and for other purposes that require local control.

 - Mark
--
Mark Berman, Chief Information Officer
Siena College
515 Loudon Road
Loudonville, NY  12211
(518)782-6957,  Fax: (518)783-2590
Siena College is a learning community advancing the ideals of a liberal arts education, rooted in its identity as a Franciscan and Catholic institution.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you received this e-mail and are not the intended recipient, please inform the sender by e-mail reply and destroy all copies of the original message.


---------- Dallas Thornton said:

Does anyone know of universities that have negotiated for their Google Apps for Education data/computing to be held within the US much like Google’s Apps for Government service?

 

Best,

 

Dallas

 

 

Dallas Thornton | Division Director, Health Cyberinfrastructure |  San Diego Supercomputer Center

University of California, San Diego | 9500 Gilman Drive, MC 0505,  La Jolla, CA, 92093

E: [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] | T: (858) 534-8364 | F: (858) 225-3661

 


We have enabled Google+ (to get to Google Hangouts) and the biggest issue for us was FERPA opt-out.

Students who have indicated (in our Banner SIS) that they do not wish to have directory information published must (by our estimation) be kept out of Google+/Google Hangout because we don't see that those systems are effectively protecting the directory information from prying eyes.

To that end we have split students into two groups within Google Apps and only enabled Hangout/+ for those students who have not opt-ed out.
The numbers are so small for opt-outs that it's a manual process right now to move students between those two groups.


Brian Miller
V.P. Information Technology Services & CIO
Davenport University
6191 Kraft Ave. SE / Broadmoor Suite 270
Grand Rapids, MI 49512
p. 616.732.1195 | c. 616-821-2618
brian.miller@davenport.edu

Follow us on Twitterhttps://twitter.com/davenportuit
Rate my Customer Service: http://great.davenport.edu/report/bmiller


And to even further complicate matters, you can't have both Hangouts and Vault running concurrently:


-Mike

Mike Osterman
IT Security Officer/
Deputy Director, Enterprise Technology
Whitman College
(509) 527-5419

On Jun 26, 2013, at 10:45 AM, Eric Bird wrote:

Just to make things even more complicated -- Doug is totally right, except with google's latest change, "new" Hangouts are now a replacement for Google Talk, which *is* part of the core services.  It seems to be (slowly) being extricated from inside Google+.  But that doesn't make the decision to enable it any easier.  See http://www.googlegooru.com/article/how-to-enable-the-new-hangouts-functionality-in-google-apps/

Eric



Eric Bird
Vice President for Technology and Chief Information Officer
Massachusetts College of Art and Design
617-879-7878

Technology staff will NEVER ask for your password, particularly not by email. Any request for it is a scam and should be ignored.


Boise State has been a Google Apps for education user since 2008 for students and 2009 for staff and faculty.  We have embraced the use of Apps including Google Hangouts and all the so called "baggage" of Google+.  It is an important part of our culture.   We use Hangouts for scheduled meetings, delivering training, impromptu meetings, for video conferencing and even desktop capture - recording as appropriate for YouTube posting, Hangouts is a great tool for us.

Boise State is aware of the openness of Google+ and act accordingly.  It is not an issue for us.

Max

Max Davis-Johnson
Office of Information Technology
Boise State University


Hello,

 

Endicott is considering moving our faculty and staff over to GAE - our students are already using it.  One of the questions that was recently brought to the table was “How are email distribution lists developed and managed on Google?”.    I don’t have a good answer for that question so I thought I’d reach out to my esteem colleagues to see how you are creating and managing distribution lists are your school.    As always, any information would be appreciated. 

 

Thank you,

Gary

------------------------

Gary Kelley

Chief Information Systems Officer

Endicott College

376 Hale Street, Beverly MA 01915

Office:  978-232-2048

gkelley@endicott.edu

 

********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Gary,

We went to Google Apps in March 2008.  We use Mailman to handle distribution lists. 

Cordially,
David

_________________________________________________________________________
David W. Sisk, PhD   Associate Director for Administration, Information Technology Services
Macalester College      /      1600 Grand Avenue      /       Saint Paul, Minnesota  55105-1899
http://its-notices-alerts.blogspot.com/                  Voice (651) 696-6745,  FAX (651) 696-6778


We use Google Apps Directory Sync - it automatically creates/syncs distribution lists based on Active Directory group membership.


Message from jcoehoorn@york.edu

In the past, this has been a manual process for us. Just in the next few weeks, over the winter break, we're finally (yay!) getting set to use Google Apps Directory Sync to handle group membership. Part of this process is completing a set of PowerShell to manage pulling who should be in what group based on our Student Information System for certain special groups. The scripts will be set to run automatically overnight, so group membership should be "hands-off" for us by next term. (I'm very excited for this!)


Joel Coehoorn
Director of Information Technology
York College, Nebraska
402.363.5603
jcoehoorn@york.edu

 

The mission of York College is to transform lives through Christ-centered education and to equip students for lifelong service to God, family, and society



We have been using the same process Joel describes since we moved both students and faculty/staff to Google Apps 2 year ago.  The Powershell scripts populate the AD groups based on student enrollment status and enrolled courses.  Then Google Apps Directory Sync syncs it all up to Google.  We also leverage user managed groups for groupings not tied to structured data.  It has been working very well for us.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Best
Director of Media and IT at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology
jbest@theseattleschool.edu | 206.876.6111 | theseattleschool.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



We moved everyone to GAE this past summer.  
For smaller departmental lists, we use Groups and use NetIQ IDM to sync AD/eDir group membership.
For large, all campus lists (all Faculty/Staff, All Students, etc), we use Sympa.  As time or need permits, we may investigate moving these to GAE in the future as well.

 

Matt Schornstein
Associate Director, IT Systems
Information Technology
Augsburg College
612-330-1288


We've been on GAE for several years.  
We use a local mail server running mailman for our departmental and larger lists.
We would have gone with the Google Groups equivalent, but all additions to and subtractions from lists would have to be done by hand, since there was no API for management at the time we implemented.  

This may have changed now, but inertia is a beast.

John Rodkey
Director of Servers and Networks
Westmont College
805-699-6707


Hello,

 

Endicott is considering moving our faculty and staff over to GAE - our students are already using it.  One of the questions that was recently brought to the table was “How are email distribution lists developed and managed on Google?”.    I don’t have a good answer for that question so I thought I’d reach out to my esteem colleagues to see how you are creating and managing distribution lists are your school.    As always, any information would be appreciated. 

 

Thank you,

Gary

------------------------

Gary Kelley

Chief Information Systems Officer

Endicott College

376 Hale Street, Beverly MA 01915

Office:  978-232-2048

gkelley@endicott.edu

 

********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Gary,

We went to Google Apps in March 2008.  We use Mailman to handle distribution lists. 

Cordially,
David

_________________________________________________________________________
David W. Sisk, PhD   Associate Director for Administration, Information Technology Services
Macalester College      /      1600 Grand Avenue      /       Saint Paul, Minnesota  55105-1899
http://its-notices-alerts.blogspot.com/                  Voice (651) 696-6745,  FAX (651) 696-6778


We use Google Apps Directory Sync - it automatically creates/syncs distribution lists based on Active Directory group membership.


Message from jcoehoorn@york.edu

In the past, this has been a manual process for us. Just in the next few weeks, over the winter break, we're finally (yay!) getting set to use Google Apps Directory Sync to handle group membership. Part of this process is completing a set of PowerShell to manage pulling who should be in what group based on our Student Information System for certain special groups. The scripts will be set to run automatically overnight, so group membership should be "hands-off" for us by next term. (I'm very excited for this!)


Joel Coehoorn
Director of Information Technology
York College, Nebraska
402.363.5603
jcoehoorn@york.edu

 

The mission of York College is to transform lives through Christ-centered education and to equip students for lifelong service to God, family, and society



We have been using the same process Joel describes since we moved both students and faculty/staff to Google Apps 2 year ago.  The Powershell scripts populate the AD groups based on student enrollment status and enrolled courses.  Then Google Apps Directory Sync syncs it all up to Google.  We also leverage user managed groups for groupings not tied to structured data.  It has been working very well for us.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Best
Director of Media and IT at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology
jbest@theseattleschool.edu | 206.876.6111 | theseattleschool.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



We moved everyone to GAE this past summer.  
For smaller departmental lists, we use Groups and use NetIQ IDM to sync AD/eDir group membership.
For large, all campus lists (all Faculty/Staff, All Students, etc), we use Sympa.  As time or need permits, we may investigate moving these to GAE in the future as well.

 

Matt Schornstein
Associate Director, IT Systems
Information Technology
Augsburg College
612-330-1288


We've been on GAE for several years.  
We use a local mail server running mailman for our departmental and larger lists.
We would have gone with the Google Groups equivalent, but all additions to and subtractions from lists would have to be done by hand, since there was no API for management at the time we implemented.  

This may have changed now, but inertia is a beast.

John Rodkey
Director of Servers and Networks
Westmont College
805-699-6707


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