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Greetings all! The recent thread on residence hall AP placement, coupled with our own performance issues that we are getting reports on from the residence halls, has prompted me to throw together another survey so that we can present some data to our Student Affairs department as to what other schools are doing in this space. Our own issues that we are seeing are the familiar ones of co-channel interference due to APs in hallways, rogue APs, higher/lower signal attenuation leading to bad coverage/performance, and an overall higher level of client device density. is the URL for the survey. We will be collecting results through Friday, February 22. Thanks in advance for any feedback that you can provide! Please note that I am not a professional survey writer, so any structural deficiencies in the survey and/or the questions are completely my fault. :) -- Julian Y. Koh Manager, Network Transport, Telecommunications and Network Services Northwestern University Information Technology (NUIT) 2001 Sheridan Road #G-166 Evanston, IL 60208 847-467-5780 NUIT Web Site: PGP Public Key: ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Comments

On Feb 22, 2013, at 12:56 , Tom O'Donnell wrote: > > I assume I'm not the only who's thinking this... Could I get a copy of > whatever results you end up with in this survey? I'm definitely planning on sharing general/aggregate results of the survey with the list. Will probably be closing it later this afternoon to get the final tally. As of right now there are 32 responses. -- Julian Y. Koh Manager, Network Transport, Telecommunications and Network Services Northwestern University Information Technology (NUIT) 2001 Sheridan Road #G-166 Evanston, IL 60208 847-467-5780 NUIT Web Site: PGP Public Key: ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
On Feb 22, 2013, at 13:00 , Julian Y Koh wrote: > > As of right now there are 32 responses. And in the last 20 minutes that shot up to 43. :) -- Julian Y. Koh Manager, Network Transport, Telecommunications and Network Services Northwestern University Information Technology (NUIT) 2001 Sheridan Road #G-166 Evanston, IL 60208 847-467-5780 NUIT Web Site: PGP Public Key: ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Thank you for doing the survey, I would be very interested in the results as well m Mark Reboli Network/Telcom Manager Misericordia University (570) 674-6753
I'd love to see the results as well.

Cian


Add me to the list.

 

 

Thanks

 

Bruce Entwistle

Network Manager

University of Redlands

 

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Cian Phillips
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 11:52 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Residence Hall Wireless survey

 

I'd love to see the results as well.

 

Cian

 

On Feb 22, 2013, at 13:59 , "Entwistle, Bruce" wrote: > > Add me to the list. > OK, there's no need for everyone to respond - as I wrote before, we're going to be sending the total/aggregate results to the entire list. :) -- Julian Y. Koh Manager, Network Transport, Telecommunications and Network Services Northwestern University Information Technology (NUIT) 2001 Sheridan Road #G-166 Evanston, IL 60208 847-467-5780 NUIT Web Site: PGP Public Key: ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
When we did our redesign last summer, I planned on 30 per AP (even though they were dual band). As a worst case scenario, I was planning on each student in the cell having 3-4 devices each. However, I found (at least this semester) most students are averaging only two devices, so there is room for growth. Heath Barnhart, CCNA ITS Network Administrator Washburn University Topeka, KS On 02/24/2013 08:05 PM, Joel Coehoorn wrote: > Don't think in terms of "clients per AP". Think in terms of clients per radio, as some access points have more than one radio. At this point, it depends on what you're doing. 25 per radio is a good rule of thumb, but for some things we go as high as 30. For other things, like asking a full classroom to all watch a video at the same time, 25 per radio is no good at all. 50 is just too many. > > You also need to think in terms of clients per rf channel. If you have enough density, adding radios won't help. You'll need a way to partition the rf space, so that sets of clients are divided into different rf cells. Using 5ghz can help with this, but only to the extent that your clients support it. > > Sent from my iPad > >
I assume I'm not the only who's thinking this... Could I get a copy of whatever results you end up with in this survey? Thanks, ---------------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Donnell Senior Manager of Network and Server Systems Information Technology Services University of Maine at Farmington (207) 778-7336
On Feb 22, 2013, at 12:56 , Tom O'Donnell wrote: > > I assume I'm not the only who's thinking this... Could I get a copy of > whatever results you end up with in this survey? I'm definitely planning on sharing general/aggregate results of the survey with the list. Will probably be closing it later this afternoon to get the final tally. As of right now there are 32 responses. -- Julian Y. Koh Manager, Network Transport, Telecommunications and Network Services Northwestern University Information Technology (NUIT) 2001 Sheridan Road #G-166 Evanston, IL 60208 847-467-5780 NUIT Web Site: PGP Public Key: ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
On Feb 22, 2013, at 13:00 , Julian Y Koh wrote: > > As of right now there are 32 responses. And in the last 20 minutes that shot up to 43. :) -- Julian Y. Koh Manager, Network Transport, Telecommunications and Network Services Northwestern University Information Technology (NUIT) 2001 Sheridan Road #G-166 Evanston, IL 60208 847-467-5780 NUIT Web Site: PGP Public Key: ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Thank you for doing the survey, I would be very interested in the results as well m Mark Reboli Network/Telcom Manager Misericordia University (570) 674-6753
I'd love to see the results as well.

Cian


Add me to the list.

 

 

Thanks

 

Bruce Entwistle

Network Manager

University of Redlands

 

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Cian Phillips
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 11:52 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Residence Hall Wireless survey

 

I'd love to see the results as well.

 

Cian

 

On Feb 22, 2013, at 13:59 , "Entwistle, Bruce" wrote: > > Add me to the list. > OK, there's no need for everyone to respond - as I wrote before, we're going to be sending the total/aggregate results to the entire list. :) -- Julian Y. Koh Manager, Network Transport, Telecommunications and Network Services Northwestern University Information Technology (NUIT) 2001 Sheridan Road #G-166 Evanston, IL 60208 847-467-5780 NUIT Web Site: PGP Public Key: ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
On Feb 22, 2013, at 14:00 , Julian Y Koh wrote: > > OK, there's no need for everyone to respond - as I wrote before, we're going to be sending the total/aggregate results to the entire list. :) And here we are! Total of 56 responses. Here are the highlights. Please post any additional questions here and I'll see if any of the data will help. Thanks again to everyone!! 1.) Primary equipment vendor: Cisco 55.4% Aruba 26.8% Meru 7.1% Juniper 5.4% 2.) Initial AP placements: Hallways/Common Areas 94.6% Individual Resident Rooms 5.4% 3.) Experiencing issues? Yes 85.7% No 14.3% 4.) Kinds of problems? Too many client devices per AP 64.6% Rogue wireless devices 58.3% High signal attenuation 45.8% Low signal attenuation 14.6% 5.) Options considered to address issues? Adding APs 84.6% Relocation APs 73.1% Changing Vendors 17.3% 6.) New AP placements: Individual Resident Rooms 68.0% Hallways/Common Areas 46.0% 7.) Mount types: Ceilings 89.1% Walls 34.5% Embedded Wall Boxes 10.9% 8.) Success at remediation? Very Successful 45.2% Moderately Successful 31.0% Not Successful 2.4% -- Julian Y. Koh Manager, Network Transport, Telecommunications and Network Services Northwestern University Information Technology (NUIT) 2001 Sheridan Road #G-166 Evanston, IL 60208 847-467-5780 NUIT Web Site: PGP Public Key: ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Message from iam@st-andrews.ac.uk

I'm quite surprised that people are experiencing too many devices per ap, as that implies either incredibly dense student packing, or a relatively small number of access points in an area. We've seen some remarkably attenuating walls and floors, but given contruction details (or best guess given age), that can be overcome. We don't expect through-floor propagation in any modern structure, due to the wrinkly-tin floors, but we also discovered that one of our buildings was once an X-Ray clinic ;) I'm personally not keen on putting equipment into student rooms, as getting back in when it goes wrong tends to be a challenge, as it's ever more onerous getting access. So, what can we do about rogue devices? Suggestions on the back of an estwing fire-ax please. -- ian
High density doesn't surprise me very much. We try to track general student wireless device, and this last year and this we had a decent amount (I forget the percentage, but it was non-trivial) that had three wireless devices per person - a laptop, table, and smart phone each. Throw in a wireless game console or media device, and you can easily have far more devices than people. The fact that many of them are always-on, low power, and low speed is just an added bonus. As for rogue devices, banning all wireless printers would be a good start... Frank Sweetser fs at wpi.edu | For every problem, there is a solution that Manager of Network Operations | is simple, elegant, and wrong. Worcester Polytechnic Institute | - HL Mencken On 2/24/2013 1:27 PM, Ian McDonald wrote: > I'm quite surprised that people are experiencing too many devices per ap, > as that implies either incredibly dense student packing, or a relatively > small number of access points in an area. > > We've seen some remarkably attenuating walls and floors, but given > contruction details (or best guess given age), that can be overcome. We > don't expect through-floor propagation in any modern structure, due to the > wrinkly-tin floors, but we also discovered that one of our buildings was > once an X-Ray clinic ;) > > I'm personally not keen on putting equipment into student rooms, as getting > back in when it goes wrong tends to be a challenge, as it's ever more > onerous getting access. > > So, what can we do about rogue devices? Suggestions on the back of an > estwing fire-ax please. > > -- ian
Message from iam@st-andrews.ac.uk

Ok, 3 per person is about what we see too, but then we've an ap:student ratio of approx 1:9, and some places are 1:6 (it worked out that way due to the construction) The AP's are dual-band too. We disable the slowest rates, encouraging devices to actually be connected to the nearest ap, rather than 'the one they saw first'. Most of the ap's are at half power too, as we saw it as a density over coverage situation. What ap:student ratio are others running? Thanks -- ian
What is considered to be "too many clients per AP"? We have 30 APs and 450 K-12 students (100 of which are dorm students). We also have a number of "carts" containing 15+ laptops the move around the school, "carts" with 15+ Ipads moving around the school and computers labs (stationary!) with 15 + computers. 350+ devices at any given time. I have seen as many as 50+ on a single AP quite often. Bob Williamson Network Administrator Annie Wright Schools | 827 N Tacoma Ave, Tacoma, WA 98403 | www.aw.org D: 253.272.2216 | F: 253.572.3616 | Bob_Williamson@aw.org Mission: Annie Wright's strong community cultivates individual learners to become well-educated, creative, and responsible citizens for a global society. Find Annie Wright Schools on Facebook Follow our Head of Schools on Twitter @AWShead
On 2/24/2013 7:45 PM, Bob Williamson wrote: > What is considered to be "too many clients per AP"? > > We have 30 APs and 450 K-12 students (100 of which are dorm students). We also have a number of "carts" containing 15+ laptops the move around the school, "carts" with 15+ Ipads moving around the school and computers labs (stationary!) with 15 + computers. > > 350+ devices at any given time. I have seen as many as 50+ on a single AP quite often. 50 on an AP is workable, if they're not all doing Netflix/Youtube. 50 on a *radio* is another story. Beyond that it depends on the split of 2.4 and 5 Ghz connections, data rates (slower ones eat up more airtime), and multi-band N-clients. Bottom line is that client counts per AP, or even per radio, aren't absolutes relative to the user experience. But yes, I would prefer "not" to see 50 or more clients on a single AP. It's unavoidable in an auditorium / lecture hall / arena type setting, but those are typically "best effort" to begin with at this point. Jeff ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Message from jcoehoorn@york.edu

Don't think in terms of "clients per AP". Think in terms of clients per radio, as some access points have more than one radio. At this point, it depends on what you're doing. 25 per radio is a good rule of thumb, but for some things we go as high as 30. For other things, like asking a full classroom to all watch a video at the same time, 25 per radio is no good at all. 50 is just too many. You also need to think in terms of clients per rf channel. If you have enough density, adding radios won't help. You'll need a way to partition the rf space, so that sets of clients are divided into different rf cells. Using 5ghz can help with this, but only to the extent that your clients support it. Sent from my iPad
When we did our redesign last summer, I planned on 30 per AP (even though they were dual band). As a worst case scenario, I was planning on each student in the cell having 3-4 devices each. However, I found (at least this semester) most students are averaging only two devices, so there is room for growth. Heath Barnhart, CCNA ITS Network Administrator Washburn University Topeka, KS On 02/24/2013 08:05 PM, Joel Coehoorn wrote: > Don't think in terms of "clients per AP". Think in terms of clients per radio, as some access points have more than one radio. At this point, it depends on what you're doing. 25 per radio is a good rule of thumb, but for some things we go as high as 30. For other things, like asking a full classroom to all watch a video at the same time, 25 per radio is no good at all. 50 is just too many. > > You also need to think in terms of clients per rf channel. If you have enough density, adding radios won't help. You'll need a way to partition the rf space, so that sets of clients are divided into different rf cells. Using 5ghz can help with this, but only to the extent that your clients support it. > > Sent from my iPad > >
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