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I was wondering what other schools have for a ratio of students to AP's in the residence halls, either definitely or approximately? If you have such a number, how do you count dual-band AP's? They're doing more than a 2.4GHz AP, but not quite as much as two AP's. Then one last related question... Would anyone know their relative mix of 2.4GHz vs. 5GHz connections in residence halls? Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Donnell Senior Manager of Network and Server Systems Information Technology Services University of Maine at Farmington (207) 778-7336 ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

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Message from reb@ncsu.edu

Tom,

We are looking to put the campus wireless in our residence halls over the next few years.  Right now it is the wild, wild, west in there.
We plan to pick a pilot hall and move forward in the next several months.  Our plans are to put an  AP per room.  When you look at all the devices the students bring with them and all that they do, I'd be leery of more than a handful per AP. 

Rick




On 1/11/2013 9:50 AM, Tom O'Donnell wrote:
I was wondering what other schools have for a ratio of students to AP's in the residence halls, either definitely or approximately? If you have such a number, how do you count dual-band AP's? They're doing more than a 2.4GHz AP, but not quite as much as two AP's. Then one last related question... Would anyone know their relative mix of 2.4GHz vs. 5GHz connections in residence halls? Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Donnell Senior Manager of Network and Server Systems Information Technology Services University of Maine at Farmington (207) 778-7336 ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


--
********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

We attempt to base it on the results of signal and service requirement moduling. This is because of major differences in the construction of buildings.  We are currently using ekahau to try and predict and plan that.

I say attempt because we often have to make do with funds business people decided we would need for a building not what the data. If you can avoid this,  it dramatically increases helpdesk calls and complaints.

Ben Parker
Network engineer
University of Mount Union

On Jan 11, 2013 9:51 AM, "Tom O'Donnell" <tomod@maine.edu> wrote:
I was wondering what other schools have for a ratio of students to
AP's in the residence halls, either definitely or approximately?

If you have such a number, how do you count dual-band AP's?  They're
doing more than a 2.4GHz AP, but not quite as much as two AP's.

Then one last related question... Would anyone know their relative mix
of 2.4GHz vs. 5GHz connections in residence halls?

Thanks.

----------------------------------------------------------
Tom O'Donnell
Senior Manager of Network and Server Systems
Information Technology Services
University of Maine at Farmington
(207) 778-7336

**********
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Tom,
We are also refreshing our wireless in our dorms. We did a site survey and found that an extra AP was needed for the new devices that preferred 5Ghz band (Apple laptops mostly). We have three APs on our corridor style dorms of 12 rooms totaling ~26 students. No vertical bleed dependencies and taking into consideration two devices per person. Each AP can handle up to 30 concurrent connections on each of the radios. I'm working on getting the numbers on 5Ghz vs. 2 Ghz.

Thanks,


Associate Director, Network Services
Barnard College
Elliott Hall Lower Level
www.barnard.edu/bcit
eMail: gcervantes@barnard.edu
Tel: 212-854-8795
Fax: 212-854-3606


We are a small K-12 school with 100 dorm students.  We have three APs in/near the dorms, each AP is capable of handling 250 users.  We have found that if a user is too close to an AP it causes major slowdowns for the user and having APs too near each other causes weird connection problems as well..  I am curious, wouldn’t one AP per room cause all kinds of interference?

 

We are using Ruckus.

 

Thanks,

Bob Williamson
Network Administrator
Annie Wright Schools | 827 N Tacoma Ave, Tacoma, WA 98403 | www.aw.org
D: 253.272.2216 | F: 253.572.3616 | Bob_Williamson@aw.org

Mission: Annie Wright's strong community cultivates individual learners to become well-educated, creative, and responsible citizens for a global society.

Find Annie Wright Schools on Facebook
Follow our Head of Schools on Twitter @AWShead

 

Message from reb@ncsu.edu

I assume that it has been determined that if the software manages the power correctly that we'll create microcells within the rooms.  I do have to say that based on the way most of our residence halls are constructed and testing at 5GHz the signals don't propagate very well through the walls. 

That is also why we want to do a pilot in one residence hall and do some extensive testing.  These AP's will also have several wired ports.  We have just completed an Aruba forklift except for one small isolated part of campus which is up next. 

Considering that the students manage to use their own wireless now with no regards to channel, interference, bonding channels in the 2.4GHz range and such, a managed system has got to perform better than the way they are doing it now.

Rick



On 1/11/2013 10:57 AM, Bob Williamson wrote:

We are a small K-12 school with 100 dorm students.  We have three APs in/near the dorms, each AP is capable of handling 250 users.  We have found that if a user is too close to an AP it causes major slowdowns for the user and having APs too near each other causes weird connection problems as well..  I am curious, wouldn’t one AP per room cause all kinds of interference?

 

We are using Ruckus.

 

Thanks,

Bob Williamson
Network Administrator
Annie Wright Schools | 827 N Tacoma Ave, Tacoma, WA 98403 | www.aw.org
D: 253.272.2216 | F: 253.572.3616 | Bob_Williamson@aw.org

Mission: Annie Wright's strong community cultivates individual learners to become well-educated, creative, and responsible citizens for a global society.

Find Annie Wright Schools on Facebook
Follow our Head of Schools on Twitter @AWShead

 

If the system is designed for performance and redundant coverage between AP's in the 5 GHz band, it's unlikely that the ratio of students per AP will even come into play except in your more public/general spaces e.g. living room.
 
In our newer residential halls, our design results in there being no more than six users per dual-band AP. Our residents tend to have at least three devices now, so it's really 18 devices per AP.
 
best,
Jeff

>>> On Friday, January 11, 2013 at 6:50 AM, in message <CAEj2BjB2OBN=j74TsnWgkquytQgCcN0rFp6Z06=qhjmMV3s4_Q@mail.gmail.com>, Tom O'Donnell <tomod@MAINE.EDU> wrote:
I was wondering what other schools have for a ratio of students to
AP's in the residence halls, either definitely or approximately?

If you have such a number, how do you count dual-band AP's?  They're
doing more than a 2.4GHz AP, but not quite as much as two AP's.

Then one last related question... Would anyone know their relative mix
of 2.4GHz vs. 5GHz connections in residence halls?

Thanks.

----------------------------------------------------------
Tom O'Donnell
Senior Manager of Network and Server Systems
Information Technology Services
University of Maine at Farmington
(207) 778-7336

**********
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

In the last dorm we built (13 stories, typical university construction), we had to put the APs in the hallways due to non-accessible ceilings in the rooms (hard pan bottom of the floor above forms the room ceilings). We asked early during the design phase for something in/on the ceiling that we could mount to, but were denied due to cost. No conduit or other exposed wiring is allowed to allow us use our preferred mounting (in the rooms). So, now we have dorm that holds just under 1,000 students with 134 APs. Just took a quick look and the max number of clients that any AP has is 13, the fewest is 0, and the midpoint is 5. Four through six clients/AP makes up about 80% of the usage. We have had no complaints since it opened this past fall. Max clients for this group of APs over the last 3 days (the students started classes on WED) was 1,091 with an average of 754. Bandwidth usage max was 36.5 Mbps in and 192.2 Mbps out with average usage at 6.7 bps in and 67.8 Mbps out. For the complete Fall semester these numbers are: Clients: Max 1,286 & Avg 855, Inbound bandwidth: Max 69 Mbps & Avg 16.7 Mbps, and Outbound bandwidth: Max 303.7 Mbps & Avg 116.6 Mbps. Based on these figures, some students haven't fired up all their new toys just yet since we are running below the fall numbers and I'm sure that many students got new things to play with over the Christmas break. APs are Cisco 1142s using WiSM2 controllers. APs are spaced at 35' down the center of the corridors. The building is shaped like a box with a hollow core and corridors all the way around the building. Rooms are on both sides of the corridors (so, some have a view out to the world and others have a view into the center courtyard. -jcw ------------------------------------- John Watters    UA: OIT  205-348-3992

100 resident students, 12 dorm parents, two floors.  All have private devices, including Wii, xbox, ipad, etc.  All stream youtube, Netflix, skype,  etc.  Friday night is probably our heaviest usage.

Three or four APs in the dorm area.  Have seen as many as 50+ on an individual AP with no problems being reported.

Bob Williamson
Network Administrator
Annie Wright Schools | 827 N Tacoma Ave, Tacoma, WA 98403 | www.aw.org
D: 253.272.2216 | F: 253.572.3616 | Bob_Williamson@aw.org

Mission: Annie Wright's strong community cultivates individual learners to become well-educated, creative, and responsible citizens for a global society.

Find Annie Wright Schools on Facebook
Follow our Head of Schools on Twitter @AWShead

 

Tom,
If you don't mind free advice from a consultant/vendor - drop me a line off-list

Ron Walczak    PMP, RCDD, CWNA/CWSP
Walczak Technology Consultants, Inc
(724) 865-2740

I asked God for all things, so I could enjoy life....
God gave me life.......
          so that I could enjoy all things....


I am easily satisfied with the very best.
~Winston Churchill~

"Not to speak is to speak.  Not to act is to act." -  Dietrich Bonhoeffer 

"The great aim of education is not knowledge but action." - Herbert Spencer

I just redesigned one of our dorms.  It is just a simple rectangle with 20 rooms per floor 10 on each side.  I put the APs in the rooms and I put 3 per floor.  I stagger them per floor.  On the first floor I had 2 on the West side of the rectangle and one on the East side.  Second floor has 1 on the East side and 2 on the West side etc.  I find considerable vertical overlap so I have to think in 3D.  I am very carefult to avoid co-channel interferrence, per my training.  I make sure the APs are not stepping on each other and I manually tune buildings when I see two APs that are close using the same channel.  I have responded to performance issues by removing an AP with positive results.
 
I do this stagger thing everywhere on campus and it works pretty well.  In the example above students who may find themselves far from an AP on their floor will have one directly below and above them and will be fine.
 
I have never done formal testing to determine how much of a problem cochannel interference.  I do know it is not the end of the world if a student has their own equipment on channels 1 6 or 11.  Equipment on any other channel is a huge deal as it is interference at that point.
 
 I have heard crazy stories about colleges just letting students bring their own wifi routers and washing their hands of it and it actually working.  I can't imagine that.  I would think most of the low end routers would be on channel 6 and folks would be using 40 Mhz channels and the whole thing would just fall down. 
 
I am comfortable with 50 people on an AP.  Ideally there would be enough coverage so that everyone would have no less of a signal than -70 on the 5 Ghz band.  For us though the cost is too high and I have not found that it is needed.  At this point 5 Ghz is a lost dream.  Not enough devices are using it and those that do also do 2.4.
 
For surveying I just use WiFi analyzer on a tablet or my phone in a pinch.  I leave 20' whips where I have drop ceilings so I can move APs later if need be but I have found the "survey by gut" method pretty affective.  I guess, throw up some APs, do a quick poor-mans survey to verify and move on.
 
Another way I test, after the fact, is to create a test SSID.  I call it Test, (I've aways been clever like that) and just assign it to a single AP.  Then connect to it and do a series of speedtests until it falls down.  That gives me a sence of how far an AP goes in terms of performance rather than signal.  It's a good test.  It is also how I know that APs from the floor below offer plenty of singnal to get the job done.
 
We have done AirMagnet surveys but I find them resource intensive and not really any more affective than my poor-man's methods. They did teach me that I get 10-15% better coverage by dropping APs below the ceiling grid.
 
Good topic.   
 
 
 
 
 

 
I just redesigned our ResNet wireless. In the planning I figured each student would have three devices (which is all we allow) on the wireless, or about 12 students per device. The APs we use are dual band, and I'm seeing about 20% usage of 5 GHz, which is up a little bit from last year. I believe the newer HT WiFi technologies are focused on 5 GHz, so I wouldn't be surprised to see more device 5 GHz capability in the near future. Heath Barnhart, CCNA ITS Network Administrator Washburn University Topeka, KS On 01/11/2013 08:50 AM, Tom O'Donnell wrote: > I was wondering what other schools have for a ratio of students to > AP's in the residence halls, either definitely or approximately? > > If you have such a number, how do you count dual-band AP's? They're > doing more than a 2.4GHz AP, but not quite as much as two AP's. > > Then one last related question... Would anyone know their relative mix > of 2.4GHz vs. 5GHz connections in residence halls? > > Thanks. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Tom O'Donnell > Senior Manager of Network and Server Systems > Information Technology Services > University of Maine at Farmington > (207) 778-7336 > > ********** > Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. > ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Depending on where people gather on campus we do see 5 GHz use that can flirt with 45% or so. But typical for the residences is around 30% for us on 5 GHz. - Lee Badman
Ron,

With all due respect, if you'd like to offer advice to the group it would be appreciated, but this is list is not meant for marketing.

Thanks,
Brian Helman

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] on behalf of Ron Walczak [ron@WALCZAKCONSULTANTS.COM]
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 2:30 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

Tom,
If you don't mind free advice from a consultant/vendor - drop me a line off-list

Ron Walczak    PMP, RCDD, CWNA/CWSP
Walczak Technology Consultants, Inc
(724) 865-2740

I asked God for all things, so I could enjoy life....
God gave me life.......
          so that I could enjoy all things....


I am easily satisfied with the very best.
~Winston Churchill~

"Not to speak is to speak.  Not to act is to act." -  Dietrich Bonhoeffer 

"The great aim of education is not knowledge but action." - Herbert Spencer

Message from resisc@rit.edu

Brian

 

I was not aware that I sent anything to the list.  What did I send?

 

Ron

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Helman
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:10 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

 

Ron,

 

With all due respect, if you'd like to offer advice to the group it would be appreciated, but this is list is not meant for marketing.

 

Thanks,

Brian Helman

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] on behalf of Ron Walczak [ron@WALCZAKCONSULTANTS.COM]
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 2:30 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

Tom,

If you don't mind free advice from a consultant/vendor - drop me a line off-list

 

Ron Walczak    PMP, RCDD, CWNA/CWSP
Walczak Technology Consultants, Inc
(724) 865-2740

I asked God for all things, so I could enjoy life....
God gave me life.......
          so that I could enjoy all things....

 

I am easily satisfied with the very best.
~Winston Churchill~

 

"Not to speak is to speak.  Not to act is to act." -  Dietrich Bonhoeffer 

"The great aim of education is not knowledge but action." - Herbert Spencer

 

Message from frnkblk@iname.com

Brian was address Ron Walczakn, not Ron Stappenbeck. =)

 

Frank

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Ron Stappenbeck
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 10:39 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

 

Brian

 

I was not aware that I sent anything to the list.  What did I send?

 

Ron

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Brian Helman
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:10 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

 

Ron,

 

With all due respect, if you'd like to offer advice to the group it would be appreciated, but this is list is not meant for marketing.

 

Thanks,

Brian Helman

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] on behalf of Ron Walczak [ron@WALCZAKCONSULTANTS.COM]
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 2:30 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

Tom,

If you don't mind free advice from a consultant/vendor - drop me a line off-list

 

Ron Walczak    PMP, RCDD, CWNA/CWSP
Walczak Technology Consultants, Inc
(724) 865-2740

I asked God for all things, so I could enjoy life....
God gave me life.......
          so that I could enjoy all things....

 

I am easily satisfied with the very best.
~Winston Churchill~

 

"Not to speak is to speak.  Not to act is to act." -  Dietrich Bonhoeffer 

"The great aim of education is not knowledge but action." - Herbert Spencer

 

I've been moving into the rooms.  Often there is duct work in the halls and I have had some issues with students tampering with APs, mostly just unplugging them but one was destroyed.  The unplugging is annoying though.

I just sacrifice one of the room ports.  So far nobody has complained. 

I wanted them in the halls initially so I could service them but I just don't need to do that very often.  It makes more sense to have killer signal in the rooms and ok signal in the hallways than the other way around. 

I use a zig zag pattern per floor and I alternate the zig with the zag per floor.  Surprisingly, I see very good coverage through the floors. 

John Kaftan
IT Infrastructure Manager
Utica College

On Jan 21, 2013 11:45 PM, "Tristan Gulyas" <Tristan.Gulyas@monash.edu> wrote:
Hi Tom.

The issue we've had is not one of density but one of coverage; in some site surveys we'e conducted recently in our residential spaces, we are finding that one AP might cover only a small amount of students, say, 6-12 reliably.

The challenges have been that our residential halls are old, double-brick with all sorts of reinforcement. We are site surveying for 2.4GHz - we can't justify the cost of a high density deployment to support 5GHz everywhere.

I have also noticed that HP produce a small active wall-outlet switch+AP which is PoE powered.  It is b/g/n 2.4GHz-only (sigh) and is aimed at the hospitality industry.

Where are people placing their APs?  We currently place them in the corridor, however our challenge has been that the APs see each other and RRM wants to drop the power levels.  We also run into issues if we have more than three APs in direct line of sight.

I'm curious - how do hotels deal with this problem?  They have similar construction and requirements.

Cheers,
Tristan

Tristan,

 

I assume your dorms are a central hallway with rooms on either side. We initially deployed our Aruba APs in the hallways and had similar issues with Aruba’s ARM dropping radio power. We have relocated the APs within the rooms in a zigzag pattern. That resolved the radio power issue since the APs cannot hear each other as well now.

 

Although we have not used them, Aruba has the AP-93H AP that is a single radio AP that has a built-in switch. It is capable of b/g/n or a/n.

 

You mention that you are designing for 2.4 GHz. Remember that the newer 802.11ac standard is 5 GHz only.

 

Bruce Osborne

Network Engineer

IT Network Services

 

(434) 592-4229

 

LIBERTY UNIVERSITY

Training Champions for Christ since 1971

 

From: Tristan Gulyas [mailto:Tristan.Gulyas@MONASH.EDU]
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: students per AP in residence halls

 

Hi Tom.

 

The issue we've had is not one of density but one of coverage; in some site surveys we'e conducted recently in our residential spaces, we are finding that one AP might cover only a small amount of students, say, 6-12 reliably.

 

The challenges have been that our residential halls are old, double-brick with all sorts of reinforcement. We are site surveying for 2.4GHz - we can't justify the cost of a high density deployment to support 5GHz everywhere.

 

I have also noticed that HP produce a small active wall-outlet switch+AP which is PoE powered.  It is b/g/n 2.4GHz-only (sigh) and is aimed at the hospitality industry.

 

Where are people placing their APs?  We currently place them in the corridor, however our challenge has been that the APs see each other and RRM wants to drop the power levels.  We also run into issues if we have more than three APs in direct line of sight.

 

I'm curious - how do hotels deal with this problem?  They have similar construction and requirements.

 

Cheers,

Tristan

We've had this issue and are looking at the feasibility and cost of moving the AP's into the rooms.  We initially started with a coverage model and not a AP per Student model. Now we're moving more to the per student model, but haven't determined what the numbers are going to look like.

As for hotels, all the ones I've been in recently that have wifi have an AP in each room.

drob
On 1/21/2013 11:34 PM, Tristan Gulyas wrote:
Hi Tom.

The issue we've had is not one of density but one of coverage; in some site surveys we'e conducted recently in our residential spaces, we are finding that one AP might cover only a small amount of students, say, 6-12 reliably.

The challenges have been that our residential halls are old, double-brick with all sorts of reinforcement. We are site surveying for 2.4GHz - we can't justify the cost of a high density deployment to support 5GHz everywhere.

I have also noticed that HP produce a small active wall-outlet switch+AP which is PoE powered.  It is b/g/n 2.4GHz-only (sigh) and is aimed at the hospitality industry.

Where are people placing their APs?  We currently place them in the corridor, however our challenge has been that the APs see each other and RRM wants to drop the power levels.  We also run into issues if we have more than three APs in direct line of sight.

I'm curious - how do hotels deal with this problem?  They have similar construction and requirements.

Cheers,
Tristan
Message from mrdorshimer@ship.edu

We have the typical corridor deployment and also experienced low power levels due to default RRM/TPC thresholds. We didn't like the idea of micromanaging power levels or the huge cost increase and security concerns of placing WAPs in the rooms. In Cisco land, a workaround for now, was increasing the power threshold from the default –70 to –50 whenever there are three or more neighbors. I've only seen the way to do this globally per each controller, and changes are only invoked by the Power Assignment Leader. I was hoping to be able to create groups and manage RRM per building but I'm either overlooking that feature or imagined it. We're using wism2's on 7.2 code.

So for now this is a campus-wide adjustment. Given the majority of our coverage model is corridor based in academic and res hall buildings, it appears to be a benefit in most locations. We have fairly good overlap so it is rare that any given WAP is at full power, even with the increased threshold. If we end up with too much channel noise we might reduce the threshold a bit. NCS heat maps show improved coverage into corner and obstructed areas and our Fluke AirCheck and some laptop testing confirm. 

Michael Dorshimer

Network Administrator

Shippensburg University


From: Tristan Gulyas <Tristan.Gulyas@MONASH.EDU>
Reply-To: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Date: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:34 PM
To: "WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

Hi Tom.

The issue we've had is not one of density but one of coverage; in some site surveys we'e conducted recently in our residential spaces, we are finding that one AP might cover only a small amount of students, say, 6-12 reliably.

The challenges have been that our residential halls are old, double-brick with all sorts of reinforcement. We are site surveying for 2.4GHz - we can't justify the cost of a high density deployment to support 5GHz everywhere.

I have also noticed that HP produce a small active wall-outlet switch+AP which is PoE powered.  It is b/g/n 2.4GHz-only (sigh) and is aimed at the hospitality industry.

Where are people placing their APs?  We currently place them in the corridor, however our challenge has been that the APs see each other and RRM wants to drop the power levels.  We also run into issues if we have more than three APs in direct line of sight.

I'm curious - how do hotels deal with this problem?  They have similar construction and requirements.

Cheers,
Tristan

Mike,

   With the WiSM2 on 7.2 you can use RF Profiles to manage your thresholds.  The option is under Wireless->RF Profiles and then you can assign it to APs under the AP Groups (WLANs->Advanced->AP Groups).  This way you can tweak the settings at whatever scale you want.

 

Josh Robertson

Sr. Wireless Engineer / InfoSecurity Admin

Denver Public Schools

Department of Technology Services

(720)423-3675

 

To open a new support call, please call the DoTS Hotline at 720-423-3888

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Dorshimer, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 7:53 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

 

We have the typical corridor deployment and also experienced low power levels due to default RRM/TPC thresholds. We didn't like the idea of micromanaging power levels or the huge cost increase and security concerns of placing WAPs in the rooms. In Cisco land, a workaround for now, was increasing the power threshold from the default –70 to –50 whenever there are three or more neighbors. I've only seen the way to do this globally per each controller, and changes are only invoked by the Power Assignment Leader. I was hoping to be able to create groups and manage RRM per building but I'm either overlooking that feature or imagined it. We're using wism2's on 7.2 code.

 

So for now this is a campus-wide adjustment. Given the majority of our coverage model is corridor based in academic and res hall buildings, it appears to be a benefit in most locations. We have fairly good overlap so it is rare that any given WAP is at full power, even with the increased threshold. If we end up with too much channel noise we might reduce the threshold a bit. NCS heat maps show improved coverage into corner and obstructed areas and our Fluke AirCheck and some laptop testing confirm. 

 

Michael Dorshimer

Network Administrator

Shippensburg University

 

From: Tristan Gulyas <Tristan.Gulyas@MONASH.EDU>
Reply-To: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Date: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:34 PM
To: "WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

 

Hi Tom.

 

The issue we've had is not one of density but one of coverage; in some site surveys we'e conducted recently in our residential spaces, we are finding that one AP might cover only a small amount of students, say, 6-12 reliably.

 

The challenges have been that our residential halls are old, double-brick with all sorts of reinforcement. We are site surveying for 2.4GHz - we can't justify the cost of a high density deployment to support 5GHz everywhere.

 

I have also noticed that HP produce a small active wall-outlet switch+AP which is PoE powered.  It is b/g/n 2.4GHz-only (sigh) and is aimed at the hospitality industry.

 

Where are people placing their APs?  We currently place them in the corridor, however our challenge has been that the APs see each other and RRM wants to drop the power levels.  We also run into issues if we have more than three APs in direct line of sight.

 

I'm curious - how do hotels deal with this problem?  They have similar construction and requirements.

 

Cheers,

Tristan

Message from mrdorshimer@ship.edu

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks Josh!

Michael Dorshimer

Network Administrator

Shippensburg University


From: <Robertson>, Joshua <JOSHUA_ROBERTSON@DPSK12.ORG>
Reply-To: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 10:06 AM
To: "WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

Mike,

   With the WiSM2 on 7.2 you can use RF Profiles to manage your thresholds.  The option is under Wireless->RF Profiles and then you can assign it to APs under the AP Groups (WLANs->Advanced->AP Groups).  This way you can tweak the settings at whatever scale you want.

 

Josh Robertson

Sr. Wireless Engineer / InfoSecurity Admin

Denver Public Schools

Department of Technology Services

(720)423-3675

 

To open a new support call, please call the DoTS Hotline at 720-423-3888

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Dorshimer, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 7:53 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

 

We have the typical corridor deployment and also experienced low power levels due to default RRM/TPC thresholds. We didn't like the idea of micromanaging power levels or the huge cost increase and security concerns of placing WAPs in the rooms. In Cisco land, a workaround for now, was increasing the power threshold from the default –70 to –50 whenever there are three or more neighbors. I've only seen the way to do this globally per each controller, and changes are only invoked by the Power Assignment Leader. I was hoping to be able to create groups and manage RRM per building but I'm either overlooking that feature or imagined it. We're using wism2's on 7.2 code.

 

So for now this is a campus-wide adjustment. Given the majority of our coverage model is corridor based in academic and res hall buildings, it appears to be a benefit in most locations. We have fairly good overlap so it is rare that any given WAP is at full power, even with the increased threshold. If we end up with too much channel noise we might reduce the threshold a bit. NCS heat maps show improved coverage into corner and obstructed areas and our Fluke AirCheck and some laptop testing confirm. 

 

Michael Dorshimer

Network Administrator

Shippensburg University

 

From: Tristan Gulyas <Tristan.Gulyas@MONASH.EDU>
Reply-To: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Date: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:34 PM
To: "WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU" <WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

 

Hi Tom.

 

The issue we've had is not one of density but one of coverage; in some site surveys we'e conducted recently in our residential spaces, we are finding that one AP might cover only a small amount of students, say, 6-12 reliably.

 

The challenges have been that our residential halls are old, double-brick with all sorts of reinforcement. We are site surveying for 2.4GHz - we can't justify the cost of a high density deployment to support 5GHz everywhere.

 

I have also noticed that HP produce a small active wall-outlet switch+AP which is PoE powered.  It is b/g/n 2.4GHz-only (sigh) and is aimed at the hospitality industry.

 

Where are people placing their APs?  We currently place them in the corridor, however our challenge has been that the APs see each other and RRM wants to drop the power levels.  We also run into issues if we have more than three APs in direct line of sight.

 

I'm curious - how do hotels deal with this problem?  They have similar construction and requirements.

 

Cheers,

Tristan

Hello Group,

 

We have traditionally designed to have AP’s in common area(s) and hallways for serviceability.  We too have encountered Cisco RRM reducing radio TX power to minimize interference.

The current model moving forward will be to design for 5GHz with AP’s located inside the rooms. Building construction materials and other sources of RF signal attenuation help create

separate RF collision domains, which allows greater flexibility in channel reuse and increases network capacity. Depending on the capacity requirements and density of your AP deployment it may be a good practice to turn off the 2.4GHz radio off on certain AP’s to get acceptable channel separation. We are contracting out 3-D RF Predictive Modeling to perform these designs.

We also will be pulling 2 CAT6 cables to each AP location to prepare for 802.11ac which will coming this year and runs only on 5GHz.

 

 

Max Lopez
Senior Wireless Engineer

Office of Information Technology
University of Colorado
3645 Marine St. Boulder, CO 80309
Direct:  303.492.2193
Mobile: 303.269.1228

Skype:  mrmax05
https://www.colorado.edu

http://www.linkedin.com/in/maxlopez

http://twitter.com/mrmaxlopez

 

 

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of phanset
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 11:59 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] students per AP in residence halls

 

 

I have one other comment about placing the APs in the rooms.

 

When we had the APs (Aruba AP-125) in the hallways, on the walls, some of the APs in the male dorms suffered antenna damage and it was difficult to isolate who caused the issue to bill for damages.

 

Now theAPs are in the rooms, we have a small group of students (the residents in the room) who are responsible for any breakage. Since the APs have been moved into the roms, we have not had any antenna breakage.

 
Bruce Osborne
Wireless Network Engineer
IT Network Services
 
(434) 592-4229
 
LIBERTY UNIVERSITY
40 Years of Training Champions for Christ: 1971-2011
 
From: John Kaftan [jkaftan@UTICA.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: students per AP in residence halls

I've been moving into the rooms.  Often there is duct work in the halls and I have had some issues with students tampering with APs, mostly just unplugging them but one was destroyed.  The unplugging is annoying though.

I just sacrifice one of the room ports.  So far nobody has complained. 

I wanted them in the halls initially so I could service them but I just don't need to do that very often.  It makes more sense to have killer signal in the rooms and ok signal in the hallways than the other way around. 

I use a zig zag pattern per floor and I alternate the zig with the zag per floor.  Surprisingly, I see very good coverage through the floors. 

John Kaftan
IT Infrastructure Manager
Utica College

On Jan 21, 2013 11:45 PM, "Tristan Gulyas" <Tristan.Gulyas@monash.edu> wrote:
Hi Tom.

The issue we've had is not one of density but one of coverage; in some site surveys we'e conducted recently in our residential spaces, we are finding that one AP might cover only a small amount of students, say, 6-12 reliably.

The challenges have been that our residential halls are old, double-brick with all sorts of reinforcement. We are site surveying for 2.4GHz - we can't justify the cost of a high density deployment to support 5GHz everywhere.

I have also noticed that HP produce a small active wall-outlet switch+AP which is PoE powered.  It is b/g/n 2.4GHz-only (sigh) and is aimed at the hospitality industry.

Where are people placing their APs?  We currently place them in the corridor, however our challenge has been that the APs see each other and RRM wants to drop the power levels.  We also run into issues if we have more than three APs in direct line of sight.

I'm curious - how do hotels deal with this problem?  They have similar construction and requirements.

Cheers,
Tristan
I was wondering what other schools have for a ratio of students to AP's in the residence halls, either definitely or approximately? If you have such a number, how do you count dual-band AP's? They're doing more than a 2.4GHz AP, but not quite as much as two AP's. Then one last related question... Would anyone know their relative mix of 2.4GHz vs. 5GHz connections in residence halls? Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Donnell Senior Manager of Network and Server Systems Information Technology Services University of Maine at Farmington (207) 778-7336 ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Message from reb@ncsu.edu

Tom,

We are looking to put the campus wireless in our residence halls over the next few years.  Right now it is the wild, wild, west in there.
We plan to pick a pilot hall and move forward in the next several months.  Our plans are to put an  AP per room.  When you look at all the devices the students bring with them and all that they do, I'd be leery of more than a handful per AP. 

Rick




On 1/11/2013 9:50 AM, Tom O'Donnell wrote:
I was wondering what other schools have for a ratio of students to AP's in the residence halls, either definitely or approximately? If you have such a number, how do you count dual-band AP's? They're doing more than a 2.4GHz AP, but not quite as much as two AP's. Then one last related question... Would anyone know their relative mix of 2.4GHz vs. 5GHz connections in residence halls? Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------- Tom O'Donnell Senior Manager of Network and Server Systems Information Technology Services University of Maine at Farmington (207) 778-7336 ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


--
********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

We attempt to base it on the results of signal and service requirement moduling. This is because of major differences in the construction of buildings.  We are currently using ekahau to try and predict and plan that.

I say attempt because we often have to make do with funds business people decided we would need for a building not what the data. If you can avoid this,  it dramatically increases helpdesk calls and complaints.

Ben Parker
Network engineer
University of Mount Union

On Jan 11, 2013 9:51 AM, "Tom O'Donnell" <tomod@maine.edu> wrote:
I was wondering what other schools have for a ratio of students to
AP's in the residence halls, either definitely or approximately?

If you have such a number, how do you count dual-band AP's?  They're
doing more than a 2.4GHz AP, but not quite as much as two AP's.

Then one last related question... Would anyone know their relative mix
of 2.4GHz vs. 5GHz connections in residence halls?

Thanks.

----------------------------------------------------------
Tom O'Donnell
Senior Manager of Network and Server Systems
Information Technology Services
University of Maine at Farmington
(207) 778-7336

**********
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.


********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

Tom,
We are also refreshing our wireless in our dorms. We did a site survey and found that an extra AP was needed for the new devices that preferred 5Ghz band (Apple laptops mostly). We have three APs on our corridor style dorms of 12 rooms totaling ~26 students. No vertical bleed dependencies and taking into consideration two devices per person. Each AP can handle up to 30 concurrent connections on each of the radios. I'm working on getting the numbers on 5Ghz vs. 2 Ghz.

Thanks,


Associate Director, Network Services
Barnard College
Elliott Hall Lower Level
www.barnard.edu/bcit
eMail: gcervantes@barnard.edu
Tel: 212-854-8795
Fax: 212-854-3606


We are a small K-12 school with 100 dorm students.  We have three APs in/near the dorms, each AP is capable of handling 250 users.  We have found that if a user is too close to an AP it causes major slowdowns for the user and having APs too near each other causes weird connection problems as well..  I am curious, wouldn’t one AP per room cause all kinds of interference?

 

We are using Ruckus.

 

Thanks,

Bob Williamson
Network Administrator
Annie Wright Schools | 827 N Tacoma Ave, Tacoma, WA 98403 | www.aw.org
D: 253.272.2216 | F: 253.572.3616 | Bob_Williamson@aw.org

Mission: Annie Wright's strong community cultivates individual learners to become well-educated, creative, and responsible citizens for a global society.

Find Annie Wright Schools on Facebook
Follow our Head of Schools on Twitter @AWShead

 

Message from reb@ncsu.edu

I assume that it has been determined that if the software manages the power correctly that we'll create microcells within the rooms.  I do have to say that based on the way most of our residence halls are constructed and testing at 5GHz the signals don't propagate very well through the walls. 

That is also why we want to do a pilot in one residence hall and do some extensive testing.  These AP's will also have several wired ports.  We have just completed an Aruba forklift except for one small isolated part of campus which is up next. 

Considering that the students manage to use their own wireless now with no regards to channel, interference, bonding channels in the 2.4GHz range and such, a managed system has got to perform better than the way they are doing it now.

Rick



On 1/11/2013 10:57 AM, Bob Williamson wrote:

We are a small K-12 school with 100 dorm students.  We have three APs in/near the dorms, each AP is capable of handling 250 users.  We have found that if a user is too close to an AP it causes major slowdowns for the user and having APs too near each other causes weird connection problems as well..  I am curious, wouldn’t one AP per room cause all kinds of interference?

 

We are using Ruckus.

 

Thanks,

Bob Williamson
Network Administrator
Annie Wright Schools | 827 N Tacoma Ave, Tacoma, WA 98403 | www.aw.org
D: 253.272.2216 | F: 253.572.3616 | Bob_Williamson@aw.org

Mission: Annie Wright's strong community cultivates individual learners to become well-educated, creative, and responsible citizens for a global society.

Find Annie Wright Schools on Facebook
Follow our Head of Schools on Twitter @AWShead

 

Bob,
You will have to from microcells to avoid overlapping and preventing users from bouncing AP to AP. We controlled that by lowering the transmit power or increasing the probe response threshold (PRT). It can be a challenge and the building's construction will always play a role into this. 


Thanks,


Associate Director, Network Services
Barnard College
Elliott Hall Lower Level
www.barnard.edu/bcit
eMail: gcervantes@barnard.edu
Tel: 212-854-8795
Fax: 212-854-3606


If the system is designed for performance and redundant coverage between AP's in the 5 GHz band, it's unlikely that the ratio of students per AP will even come into play except in your more public/general spaces e.g. living room.
 
In our newer residential halls, our design results in there being no more than six users per dual-band AP. Our residents tend to have at least three devices now, so it's really 18 devices per AP.
 
best,
Jeff

>>> On Friday, January 11, 2013 at 6:50 AM, in message <CAEj2BjB2OBN=j74TsnWgkquytQgCcN0rFp6Z06=qhjmMV3s4_Q@mail.gmail.com>, Tom O'Donnell <tomod@MAINE.EDU> wrote:
I was wondering what other schools have for a ratio of students to
AP's in the residence halls, either definitely or approximately?

If you have such a number, how do you count dual-band AP's?  They're
doing more than a 2.4GHz AP, but not quite as much as two AP's.

Then one last related question... Would anyone know their relative mix
of 2.4GHz vs. 5GHz connections in residence halls?

Thanks.

----------------------------------------------------------
Tom O'Donnell
Senior Manager of Network and Server Systems
Information Technology Services
University of Maine at Farmington
(207) 778-7336

**********
Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.

I just redesigned our ResNet wireless. In the planning I figured each student would have three devices (which is all we allow) on the wireless, or about 12 students per device. The APs we use are dual band, and I'm seeing about 20% usage of 5 GHz, which is up a little bit from last year. I believe the newer HT WiFi technologies are focused on 5 GHz, so I wouldn't be surprised to see more device 5 GHz capability in the near future. Heath Barnhart, CCNA ITS Network Administrator Washburn University Topeka, KS On 01/11/2013 08:50 AM, Tom O'Donnell wrote: > I was wondering what other schools have for a ratio of students to > AP's in the residence halls, either definitely or approximately? > > If you have such a number, how do you count dual-band AP's? They're > doing more than a 2.4GHz AP, but not quite as much as two AP's. > > Then one last related question... Would anyone know their relative mix > of 2.4GHz vs. 5GHz connections in residence halls? > > Thanks. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Tom O'Donnell > Senior Manager of Network and Server Systems > Information Technology Services > University of Maine at Farmington > (207) 778-7336 > > ********** > Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. > ********** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Depending on where people gather on campus we do see 5 GHz use that can flirt with 45% or so. But typical for the residences is around 30% for us on 5 GHz. - Lee Badman
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